Visa Inc. (V) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning again, everybody. I'm Darrin Peller, covering payments and IT services at Wolfe. Thank you again for being with us at the Wolfe FinTech Forum, day #1. We're really happy to have Visa with us, fresh off their Investor Day from maybe a few weeks back now at this point. But we're really happy to have Chris, the CFO of the company with us. So thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks.

We're happy to have you again.

Let's just start there. I mean, post Investor Day reaction, Chris, what are some of the most important incremental points or takeaways from the Investor Day, which I know takes a lot of work and thought for the company to set up. So just from your perspective, to ensure investors understand about Visa going forward, we'll just start there.

Darren, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Yes, Investor Day. So it was, as many of you know, the first one that we've done in a while. It was actually pre-pandemic 2020 was the last one that we had one. And so as we thought about our approach to Investor Day, we wanted to give a fairly comprehensive update. It was also the first first one with Ryan now as CEO, myself, certainly new as CFO. And as you looked across the leaders -- all the presenters for the day, many of them are Visa veterans, but many of them were doing a new role, leading a new business that they weren't leading in 2020. So we thought we would take the opportunity to give a pretty comprehensive update. We feel good about how the day went. We shared a lot of information. This is actually my first time now out speaking since that Investor Day. So we've had a lot of really good conversations with investors, but maybe I'll give you a handful of sort of reflections, I guess, in my part. We did do a lot. We gave a lot of information. I think we shared with you progress on a number of fronts. Four things that I would point to. One is, we took the time to really articulate our view on the addressable opportunity still in front of us, which is significant across consumer payments, across value-added services, across what we had previously called new flows, now rebranded as commercial and money movement solutions. So across both -- all three growth pillars, very significant opportunity. Two, we gave an update on our strategy, our strategy around consumer payments, value-added services, new flows, card and non-card and gave very specific strategies by each of those pillars, but how we're going to go after that addressable opportunity. Three is we gave a lot of disclosure around the state of the business, the sizing of the various businesses, the yields across various businesses, how we're doing market by market, showing you sort of how we do on cash-rich markets or in more developed markets, and we were pretty transparent about that. And then the fourth thing, of course, we sort of wrapped it all together into a growth framework that we thought made sense. Clicking into that a little bit, just to hit some of the high points. This is like Investor Day in a 30-second summary. In consumer payments, $23 trillion addressable opportunity still in front of us, cash, ACH, wire, other form of domestic schemes, other forms of less effective. That's more than twice the current PV that we have today with Visa, and we shared a number of strategies to go after that. In CMS, $200 trillion. That's a number we shared before, but we got pretty specific about what we're doing around Visa Direct and B2B to go after that opportunity and VAS. We've probably shared the most new disclosures around VAS, shared with you four, the four portfolios, each over $1 billion, each growing at very healthy rates and the very significant addressable market that we have available there. And then we wrapped it all up, foundational elements, our brand, the power of our network, the security, the reliability of the network, how we're executing from a sales and market standpoint. And so we put that all together, we showed off some products. We had a showcase demonstrating our product innovation as well. And so altogether, put that together. I think it was a good day. We've had good conversations. A lot of interest in the value-added services and CMS disclosures and the state of the business. You asked about sort of -- if I would call out one other thing in terms of the post Investor Day conversation that has been around the notion of Visa as a service. So Visa as a service is an evolution of our network and platform strategy. It's really where we've unbundled the Visa stack, and we've made many of our class-leading components available to a broader set of customers. I think that's an interesting evolution of our network, and there's been good conversations there as well.

It was nice to come away from that day with a company of your size, 5 years later and still having that, call it, 10% or 9% to 12% algorithm from a top line standpoint in terms of what you can achieve from a growth rate standpoint, medium term, which just impressive, given the magnitude and the size of the business. But look, before we go further down the down the focus on the Investor Day and key takeaways in the strategy. Just a quick update on recent trends, given so much noise from a macro standpoint, both policy-driven and some just economic questions. And so your recent quarter and your -- even January 28 data obviously showed some decent trends accelerating. I think you accelerated actually about 1 point even into January across the U.S., cross-border international was still strong. So maybe just help us understand what you're seeing in the state of the consumer now, the health of the consumer. Any comment you can give us on recent trends even since then would be helpful.

Great. Yes. It is a little noisy out there admittedly. But maybe then the best place to then start is to just like sort of try to be as clear as possible. Let's go back to what I said in the January earnings call, which is a little over a month ago, maybe 1.5 months ago. As you pointed out, we were coming off of a strong first quarter, where we saw our drivers performed very well. And through the first 4 weeks of January, through January 28, we commented on our earnings call that in the U.S. payment volumes in the month of January were pretty consistent with the month of December, although we did point out that January was benefiting from severe weather, a little easier comp from a year ago. Since then, through the month of February, now we have seen U.S. payment volumes moderate a bit. That was as expected, as we talked about as well in our earnings call, because of the impact -- primarily the biggest single driver being the impact of the leap year, the extra day that we got in February of last year for leap year. And so quarter-to-date, if you put that together through February, U.S. payment volumes down slightly from Q1 largest driver being the day benefit from leap year, a quarter ago. Those trends have, if I think that outside the U.S., whether it's transactions, cross-border or other key markets, those dynamics have largely kind of been consistent as well. It's also worth pointing out that in the month of March, the timing of Easter could have an impact. Easter was in March a year ago. It's late April this year. And so the timing -- relative timing between March and April could have an impact as well. And then maybe the final thing, just reflecting again, back to what I said in January, from a revenue perspective, given the strong underlying drivers, we said Q2 revenue growth -- net revenue growth is expected to be pretty similar to Q1 with two notable exceptions. One, leap year, which I just talked about; and two, with the stronger U.S. dollar, the FX headwind would be about 1.5 points greater than in Q1. And so those are the sort of the two big differences. Otherwise, the two quarters we indicated at that time should look relatively similar. Obviously, there's still a few weeks left to go. There's -- as you started in your question, there's a little bit of uncertainty whether it's macro or inflation concerns or whatever the case might be, we'll continue to focus on the things we can execute and control, and we'll see how the rest of the quarter plays out.

Okay. So it sounds like -- I mean, you're calling out obviously the February impact from leap year, you're calling out what could be, obviously, the timing on Easter being an impact. I mean, outside of that, the consumer sounds, is it similar to what you'd expect?

Well, as I just shared in terms of -- as it's reflected in our volume it's kind of played out so far, as through the month of February, as we had anticipated, leap year being the biggest single driver of the differential from, I'd say, Q4 -- or Q1 to Q2.

Okay. Chris, we're getting a lot of questions on inflation potential and what it could be for the mean for the business. So maybe just remind us a bit, if you can on how sensitive you've seen consumers to the inflation expectations. And more importantly than that, I mean, just how inflation impacts your business? Obviously, there's the volume-based aspect of it and then there's the demand aspect of it.

Yes. Inflation, it's hard to tell. The real answer is it's sort of hard to tell what's happening today as we've seen higher inflation over the last several quarters as well. You've seen in the reported volumes, volumes have been -- there's been variability in quarters. It's impacted our average ticket sizes as you've seen in the U.S., the average ticket sizes have trended -- had been through the course of FY '24, below year-over-year, down year-over-year, but that had been improving throughout the course of the year, and some of that may have been related to inflationary aspects. But it also -- it's a basket of goods, as you know, in our payment volume. And so it really has to -- it really depends on sort of the mix of the different categories of spend. It's -- there's no direct correlation. I wish I could give you sort of an algorithm that says, X equals Y, but it really just depends on which categories we're seeing. And overall, what we saw through the last cycle of inflation is that the consumer remained relatively resilient through all of that. And so we're not macroeconomists, but we continue to be data-driven from that standpoint. And we'll just share with you as we see it, when we see it in the data.

Okay. Okay. Another key driver obviously is cross-border, right? It's one of the most important variables for your business model. And so if you could just revisit what you're seeing. I mean, obviously, it's been holding up extremely well. So is e-com actually for that matter. So cross-border e-com, regular travel cross-border, what are you embedding in your outlook from a cross-border standpoint? And maybe just help us understand what's driving that strength?

Yes, cross-border has been sort of a strength. It was a strength pre-pandemic. It was -- after going through the valley, it was in a sort of a major strength post-pandemic, and it's continued to normalize a bit with travel as we've all seen in the data. As you pointed out, in this last quarter, 16% across -- in Q1, 16% total volume growth cross-border -- total cross-border volume. And it was actually the same growth in travel, cross-border travel and cross-border e-commerce, both at 16%. That wasn't always the case. And in fact, if you go, again, pre-pandemic e-commerce with a smaller share of the business and growing a little bit faster than travel. In Q4, in fact, even before this last Q1, e-commerce had grown at 15%. So that's been more of the steady grower and travel had dipped down to 12% before we saw the acceleration into the first quarter. So that's -- it continues to be a strength in terms of sustainability and what we have embedded into our expectations. I don't guide on cross-border travel numbers specifically. Travel, in particular, is kind of inherently hard to predict, especially in different geos and different corridors. But at the start of the year, I did indicate what was embedded in our planned guidance for the year. We said, hey, the Q4 trends are basically what we've assumed throughout FY '25. That's the planning assumption that we used. Q1 came in a little better than that, and then we've kind of extrapolated that into the Q2, what was embedded into the Q2 guide. We'll have to see how the second half of the year plays out. Maybe the final comment then is then sustainability of that. Two things I'd point to. One is the mix, we talked about e-commerce and travel, well pre-pandemic, e-commerce, again, the higher growing portion of it was about 1/3 of total cross-border volumes. Today, it's about 40%. And so just the mix of the faster-growing piece of the component of cross-border is a net benefit if things continue the way they are. And then the second thing is, it is broad-based, which is cross corridors. So put it Asia aside for a second. LAC, EMEA, Europe and the U.S. in and out, travel has continued to be strong, growing faster than domestic. That's -- all things equal, broad-based strength is better than narrow in terms of durability. And in Asia, it continues to recover, continues to improve. There's two markets we're watching in particular. I would say, inbound to China, outbound out of Japan. They both continue to be below 2019 levels. Presumably at some point, they will sort of revert to the mean at some level. And when that happens, that could be a tailwind to growth, but we'll continue to watch those markets very carefully. So all in all, continue to see strong cross-border. It's important for our business. It's important for our economics. And like I said, we'll continue to be data-driven and share with you what we see.

Right. And on that note, I mean, it's maybe related to cross-border, but FX volatility, obviously, has been getting -- it's getting higher, right? It's been higher now for some time, although albeit it was a headwind quite a bit of the year last year and even into this year. Where are we now on it? And what's embedded on the FX vol side relative to your guidance? Any maybe conservatism in your outlook for that?

So you're exactly right. Last year, it was pretty much a headwind. We had the highest point of volatility last year it was in Q1, and then it sort of meaningfully declined throughout the course of the year. And so that was a drag on year-over-year growth throughout most of FY '24. Going into this year, Q1 was better than Q4 but still down a little bit year-over-year. And our expectation that we shared was that should volatility remain at those levels, it no longer becomes a drag starting in the current quarter that we're in. We'll let you know how we did in a few weeks.

Okay. Let's shift to a little bit of a bigger picture question. Now in terms of your outlook and your medium-term targets. And starting off with the fact that we just did exit a quarter where your growth rate on U.S. volume was 7% to 8% on U.S. You had 10% to 11% international volume. But you're guiding medium term to consumer payments volume growth of 5% to 7%. So just help us understand and reconcile the trajectory we're in right now versus the 5% to 7% embedded in your outlook.

I mean the first place I'll start is that the growth framework that we shared at Investor Day, which you're referring to the 5% to 7%, and for your information, it's not guidance. I just want to be clear. What we shared with you is a framework for growth and a long-term framework for growth where we said, we've given you the opportunity and the strategies by which we're going after this growth, as you can see how it all sort of plays out, it will impact the total growth of Visa. So let's focus a little bit on the consumer payments, but I kind of want to bring it back to that growth framework a little bit because I think that's instructive as well. So on the consumer payment side of it, I think the most important takeaway from Investor Day is, a, number one, we have great confidence that we'll continue to outgrow. We have outgrown. We'll continue to outgrow the addressable underlying PCE. We have great confidence in our ability to do that. And why do we have the ability? I know this has been a topic of conversation, obviously, in the U.S. and in other places. A few things I'll point out. Jack Forestell, our Chief Product Officer -- our Chief Product and Strategy Officer, did, I think, a really good job. If you haven't had a chance to go back and watch his sort of the -- his Investor Day presentation, I think it's worthwhile. He pointed to six things. Number one, that we've talked about the opportunity that we have in the $23 trillion. Two, he talked about these six ways, among many other ways that we're going to go after it. That's along focused strategy around cross-border, across affluent from sort of an innovation standpoint with tokenization, with credit solutions and with A2A. And so we're going after it in sort of a multipronged approach. And he also showed you that we've continued to execute really, really well. Seven markets that he showed, all with cash remaining under 10% of its total PCE. And in all those markets, we've continued to grow really strongly. So the consumer payment story, again, we continue to expect that we'll outgrow even though that gap between PV and addressable PCE has narrowed and likely to continue to narrow. We'll continue to outgrow it. We have great confidence in our ability to do so. And then zooming out to the overall growth framework where a big part of Visa's strategy has been to diversify outside of consumer payments. And so with the strong growth in value-added services and new flows, when you add that all together over the last few years, as that PV, PCE gap has narrowed. We've continued to deliver double-digit revenue growth, and I think that's an important point as well.

All right. So it's almost like you're putting it in as a placeholder that you're going to outperform the market. And even with whatever that number is outperforming the market, you're going to show us that double-digit given value-added services and new flows, and the other pieces of the pie are really that strong.

Yes. I think we gave you all the pieces by which you could -- I think you could sort of pretty intelligently predict where you think we'll fall in that growth curve. I mean the way the growth framework showed 9% to 12%, as you know and that had different sort of levels of growth around consumer payments, value-added services and new flows.

Very quickly, just short term for a minute again. There is some business that you had -- that had shifted over the last year, a couple of contracts that I know went to a competitor. And so your -- it was impacting U.S. volume growth rate this year. That's lapping, I think, in your calendar second quarter, that should obviously have a slight tailwind to U.S. volume. I just want to make sure we're right about that.

Yes, correct. We haven't spoken too much about it in detail, but I will acknowledge that there was some client portfolio losses transitions, and we will lap those specific ones you're referring to in the second half.

Second half. Right, in second -- of really calendar second half, right?

Yes.

Yes. Okay. All right. And then just shifting gears a little more. I mean you completed, I think, 60% of your full year planned renewals in fiscal first quarter. And so maybe just touch on how you view the current landscape for portfolio renewals between large and small deals right now and really what you're seeing in the market.

Every year, just to, again, maybe structurally just to describe it a little bit, in any given year, you have -- so our typical sort of contract term is about 5 to 7 years. And so any given year, you have roughly 15% to 20% of payment volumes impacted by renewal activity that come up for renewal. In FY '25, we shared that we expect that to be on the higher end around 20%. It was about 15% in FY '24. So it's a little bit of a bigger volume year. And to your point, the sort of unusual timing of such that the majority of it or 60% of it anyway, happens in Q1. That's largely played out. We saw a very successful and active renewal activity in the first quarter. And so that's all sort of playing out the way that we anticipate. Zooming out to your broader question, though, it remains -- we operate in a very competitive industry. We continue to compete effectively and successfully and we're able to renew our existing client relationships and expand on them in many ways. It just goes to show we have a very localized strategy. We have great client engagement in all of our regions around the world. Each quarter, we go through a whole list of many of our positive outcomes with clients. I can't obviously rattle all of them off. But I'll point to a couple just illustratively that we've talked about maybe in the last quarter or 2. In Europe, we announced our -- well, sorry, with BNP Paribas, sorry, in Europe, we announced a renewal and expansion, expansion into France and Belgium in AP and in CEMEA, we announced a renewal and expansion of Standard Chartered Bank. We're going to renew our credit portfolio in certain markets in Asia, renew our debit portfolio in certain markets in Africa, and we're going to expand credit into the Middle East. And so there's a number of wins in LAC. We talked about our deal with RBC, expanding in commercial and consumer across 10 markets in the Caribbean. And so again, we continue to be really successful on this front, but it remains a very competitive environment. And I think we do a good job of partnering with our clients to really grow the ecosystem in total.

Can I ask -- I mean, from a competitive standpoint, there was a perception among investors at least that with higher rebates, and incentives that things were kind of tougher from a competitive standpoint. And it looks like we've maybe gotten a little more rational, again, at least from a pricing standpoint. Can you just give us a sense of what you're seeing? I mean, do you think competition is any different today than it was over the past couple of years, whether it's versus other large payments companies that you compete with or other local networks or anything else?

I'll answer this in maybe a couple of ways. As I indicated in the last question, it remains a competitive environment. And thankfully, we've done a really good job of competing. And so that's all good. From a pricing standpoint, we've consistently said we price to value. And what does that really mean? That means as long as we're continuing to be successful adding value to the health of the ecosystem, whether that's higher auth rates, better fraud management, whether we're able to deliver new services and products that help our clients be successful. We're helping the overall ecosystem be successful. Our clients grow. At the end of the day, it's a balancing act, and we want our clients to grow. We want the whole ecosystem to grow and all participants to benefit from that. And if we do a good job of sort of managing the delicate balance of that ecosystem, I think that, a, we feel really good about our ability to do so. And b, it's good for all participants in that ecosystem. And so a, it remains competitive; b, we price to value, and we think we continue to deliver increasing levels of value. We feel good about that. And then maybe the last thing I'll say is because you started with sort of an incentive question, which is, again, something that we've consistently said. We really managed the net revenue growth and incentives at the end of the day are a tool for us to continue to align interest with our partners to grow volumes, grow revenue. And really, we played the long game from that standpoint because that's really the goal to continue long-term health and growth of the ecosystem.

Right. If I'm not mistaken, I mean you did a lot of your incentives and rebates, as you said, in Q1, and Q2 has a tough comp, but then it really should be an easier growth from a year-over-year standpoint in the second half, right, just given how much you've already done, obviously, on rebates.

Yes. I mean -- listen, I haven't given sort of quarterly cadence for that, but we've tried to give a little bit of the shape of the year with our commentary about it being from...

Yes. Yes, that makes sense. And then quickly on local networks. This came up with a call -- actually, I was in a meeting with Oliver Jenkyn at your Investor Day, having lunch actually. And at the end of the day, I mean, he was really excited about local networks still being an opportunity and a source of share gains for you guys. Is that -- where does that -- what do you see there, I guess, in terms of European or other [ local ] network opportunities versus perhaps do you see any of the opposite extreme where governments are trying to do more on their own? Is that shaping up anywhere like Russia did years ago, anywhere else?

Yes. So -- yes, when we talked about -- let me try to address that. When we talked about the big opportunity that we saw in consumer payments. The $23 trillion, that includes a certain amount of volume that's run on domestic schemes. We -- our broad sort of positioning on consumer payments is that we're very committed to work to ensure that Visa remains the best way to be paid, pay and be paid on all consumer payments, whether it's carded, non-card, et cetera, et cetera. And so that's where our focus has been. We've had good success, and I share Oliver's enthusiasm. We've had good success. And we've talked about a number of wins against domestic schemes. I think we'll -- I think it's sort of fair to acknowledge that our -- the robustness of our network and our capabilities and features are outshine many of those in these domestic schemes. Our approach has been sort of consistent, I'd say, because they are evolving to your point, governments are getting involved and sort of the dynamics maybe are slightly different with the type of offerings. And hence, the expansion of our strategy around consumer payments to be both card and non-card. But we approach it in many ways in a consistent way. One, on the carded side of the business, this is what we know how to do. We know how to win issuance. We know how to win acceptance, we know how to make -- deliver innovation that makes the consumer engagement experience really great, like the flex credential as an example of that. We're going to continue now that we're sort of venturing against -- or with sort of alternative payments and things like this in these markets as well. You've heard us talk a lot more about non-card or A2A networks. We've launched our own Visa-branded A2A. Tink helps us go do that. And in end markets where A2A, networks have flourished a little bit, we're seeing progress. So Tink, for example, is now processing 6 million transactions a month in the Nordics, where the Nordics were A2A and RTP transactions are doing well. And the Nordics is next on the list of the expansion of our Visa A2A service, which we announced in the U.K. last year. And so again, we're having some local strategies specific to that. And then maybe the third thing I'll say is that with Visa as a service, as we continue to think about the opportunity to unbundle the Visa stack, offer things like Visa A2A Protect for other players and participants in these networks, that also is a differentiator and a value -- a valuable way that we can differentiate ourselves and Visa and also grow our opportunity as well.

But are you seeing any other governments try to pivot to that direction of doing more on their own or trying to move away from multinational companies.

Yes. I mean you're seeing it in -- like if I think about sort of the real-time payments clearing, that's where we see it most actively. It's -- let's say, by last count, I think there are 70 countries that have some form of a real-time clearing network now. I think, though, the way that we've seen it evolve, it's relatively small. They haven't gained a lot of traction, except in certain markets. And really, for us, it's come down to, a, what's the level of investment that the governments have made behind these networks, these sort of new networks, these alternative payment networks. And are they serious about it? And b, is there really a glaring need or a problem to get solved. And in cases where there is, then you've seen sort of these payment networks flourish. And in other cases, they haven't. And like I said, we continue to think about how we work with coexist, partner with, in some cases, and compete and adapt in these markets. They are small, but they are growing. And so you've heard us adapt our strategy...

Yes. I mean I think the Visa as a service strategy kind of addresses that, right? You now can offer even those companies if I don't know, take Pix in Brazil or other markets you could offer them value-added services, right? That may wrap around what they're doing and make it more secure. So maybe we just shift for a moment to VAS, in general. I mean you have issuing, acceptance, risk and ID, advisory and open banking or kind of the main categories, all of them growing double digits. And so -- and you guided to a strong growth rate. I think you said, what, mid- to high teens or high teens. When we think about the potential for that, where are you investing most of your incremental dollars now? And how much of it is organic versus M&A-driven going forward.

Right. Value-added services is doing great. The business itself has been one of the highlights for Visa, led by the very capable Anthony Cahill, who is the Global President of value-added services, who you heard from on Investor Day. There's a lot going on in this business, and we tried to be, like I said, pretty transparent about the success we're seeing. You pointed to the four solutions, but -- four portfolios, as we call them. But maybe I'll just click into that for a second. So issuing solutions, acceptance, risk and security and advisory and other. All four over $1 billion each with issuing solutions at north of $3 billion. And all of them growing at mid-teens or even higher with advisory and other growing the fastest over the last 3 years. And so breadth, scale and opportunity and execution has been strong. I'll also point out what's most encouraging to me or one of the more encouraging things is also the fact that even at this scale, almost $9 billion in FY '24, growing 20%, we're only penetrated about sort of, let's say, 1% to 3% in each of the portfolios that we operate in. And so the revenue -- that's a revenue statement. The revenue opportunity remains quite significant in front of us. In terms of prioritization, we've invested in this business all along. We're really fortunate that we have the ability -- the balance sheet and the ability to really invest organically, inorganically, think about how we grow all these markets like we do across Visa, for value-added services, it start with, a, the -- is there a client need? Is there a market need? Is there a client need? And if the answer is yes, then we look at is -- we ask ourselves a few questions. One is, is Visa uniquely suited to help address that? If the answer is yes, then how do we go about doing that? Can we enhance an existing product or service? Or alternatively, do you have to build a new one? Or do you have to acquire it for that matter. And if you look across what we've done in VAS in issuing solutions, we acquired Pismo. But we've also been investing in our own solutions. We talked about Smarter Stand-In Processing, for example. In Acceptance Solutions, previously acquired CyberSource, Verifi. We talked about the fact that we're investing in Authorize.net, whole new reimagined refreshed service coming out later this year, advanced tools, sophisticated tools using the AI agent and that, as we've cleverly dubbed it coming out later this year. Risk and advisory, we've acquired Featurespace. We've closed that acquisition. And we've always -- this has been a strength of ours. We've had industry-leading fraud detection, risk management services there. Advisory and other. We've grown an advisory business and marketing services business at very healthy rates, but we've also got Tink as part of that, part of the other advisory and other where we're seeing early days in growth. And so it's really a combined hybrid approach, acquisitions, homegrown investment in product and services. We've done, I think, a pretty good job, and we'll continue to focus on these areas...

Okay. Maybe just one last question for me, and then maybe we'll have time for just one quick one. But just from a policy standpoint, a lot of noise in the market, obviously, right now. And so what policy changes are you most focused on within this current administration? Maybe just comment on how tariffs have impacted the consumer in the past? And then any outlook or anything that's changed post-election in terms of expectations from the DOJ suit or regulated debit changes or anything else worth mentioning at the moment?

Yes. There's a lot going on there as you called out. I'll try to unpack it maybe into a couple of distinct buckets. From a macro standpoint, at the beginning of the conversation, we noted that there's a level of uncertainty that we're all watching. But we've also consistently said, we're not macroeconomists. And in the past, we've continued to see resilience even in the -- when tariffs -- in the last administration, we saw some tariffs, inflation has been a thing over the last few years. And through all of that, the consumer has remained relatively resilient, and our volumes have remained relatively stable. And so that's sort of the best pattern recognition that we have. Obviously, again, I'll sort of disclaim all that saying we're not macroeconomists, and we don't know how all that will play out in terms of recession or not recession, all these questions that are sort of popping up. But we'll continue to control what we can control. On the second part of your question, from a policy regulation standpoint, it's early days. We continue to be constructively engaged. We continue to stand by our business practices. We continue to feel good that we've been pro competition, pro-growth, pro the benefit of all players in the ecosystem, and we'll continue to defend our right to do so.

Any quick ones? We have about 30 seconds, I guess. Okay. Why don't we leave it there, guys. Thank you so much, Chris...

Great. I appreciate it. Thanks for the time.