Visa Inc. (V) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

I'll get started. Well, welcome to day 2 of our conference. Again, I'm Sanjay Sakhrani. I lead the consumer finance and payments equity research team at KBW. To kick off the second day, I'd like to welcome Chris Suh, CFO of Visa. Chris has many years of executive experience across industries. Prior to joining Visa in 2023, he served as CFO of Electronic Arts, Microsoft Cloud and AI Division and the Head of IR at Microsoft. So thank you, Chris, for taking the time to speak with us today and come all the way from San Francisco. And Jennifer came up the elevator bank a few floors to our conference. So thank you for making the trip.

So maybe we start with the biggest topic of the week, which is the recent merchant settlement announcement. Could you walk us through the timing, key terms and the implications for Visa and other players in the ecosystem? The concession to the honor all cards seems pretty meaningful given that's been a key value prop for the networks historically, and they've been very protective of it. How might that impact the competitive balance in the marketplace as it relates to merchants steering away from premium cards? Loaded question.

A lot there. First of all, thanks, Sanjay, and thanks, everyone. Thanks for joining us and giving me the chance to give you an update about what's going on at Visa. So there was a lot there in that question. So bear with me, there's a lot of moving parts. And so I'm going to give you sort of the full -- a more fulsome answer. Earlier this week, on Monday, we did announce that we've reached a proposed settlement with merchants in the U.S. As many of you know, this litigation has been going on for over 20 years, and we've been very focused on reaching a resolution. So the proposed settlement provides merchants in the U.S. of all sizes with meaningful relief, more flexibility and options to control how they accept payments. When compared to the previous settlement terms, the new offer, the new current proposal offers a more significant interchange reduction and more flexibility and control around surcharging and honor all cards. So I can't and won't be able to go through all of it in detail, but let me just try to hit a few of those high points. First, with regard to lower interchange. So the proposal provides for a reduction in interchange for U.S. combined average effective credit interchange rates by 10 basis points for a period of 5 years. In addition, merchants will now have interchange rate certainty, which means for U.S. posted credit interchange rates, they'll be capped for a period of 5 years and interchange rates associated with the standard tier of credit card categories will be capped at 125 basis points. That's one. Two, with regard to more flexibility around surcharging and honor all cards. But what does that mean? That means merchants now have the option to search -- more options rather, to surcharge even when they're not surcharging other payment networks. And two, merchants will have the option to accept -- choose to accept U.S. credit cards along distinct categories, and that's commercial, premium consumer and standard consumer. And then third, we've introduced merchant education programs covering payment acceptance and cost management made available to merchants of all sizes in the U.S. Okay. So those are sort of the highlights in key terms. Now you asked about implications and how to think about all of this. Well, it is early days, and we're ways off from implementation. But a, it will be cheaper for merchants to accept credit cards. And two, they will have more flexibility options and choices. And we believe as merchants make choices, they really care about the customer experience for their customers as they make payments. And so they think not only about cost, but they think about safety, security, reliability, speed, trust, the brand, the customer experience, the UX, industry-leading innovation. They consider all these things. And when they do consider all these things, they understand and have benefited from accepting Visa, and we believe they'll continue to choose to accept Visa. Now where are we in the process in terms of next steps? We do expect the legal process to continue through the end of fiscal 2026, which means that any implementation would occur in fiscal 2027. To support the approval process, we, along with Mastercard, have filed an affirmative brief with additional details. The mediator in this case, who knows the case very, very well, has also filed a support declaration. And certainly, we all stand ready and ready to respond to any questions should they arise or any objections should the merchants have any, we'll respond quickly and effectively. So there's a lot there. To sum it up, we're very pleased to have reached this proposed settlement, one that provides meaningful relief to merchants in the U.S., additional flexibility and options to control how they accept payments. And we're very focused on the approval process. We believe Visa will continue to be well positioned to compete in this new environment.

Just one question I asked within the series of questions I asked on steering. Just how do you think about merchants and steering? Do you think that will become prevalent? I know they've been able to do it in certain facets recently -- before this. So could you just talk a little bit about that?

Yes, it has been an existing practice. Like I said, it's early, and we'll have to see how it all plays out. But we do believe that they understand the benefits of accepting Visa and for all the reasons that I talked about from safety and security to the actual customer experience. And we believe that our value proposition is strong, and they'll continue to choose to accept Visa cards.

Got it. Okay. We're going to shift gears and talk about the fourth quarter results. It seems like the consumer continues to be resilient with some variability by segment. Any updates relative to the last few weeks? What are the 1 or 2 leading indicators that you guys are looking at, either internal, external to gauge the health of the consumer and the trajectory?

We talked about Q4. Just to start there a little bit. We referred to the consumer as resilient in Q4. We've used that word actually throughout the course of FY '25. And if you look at sort of how broad-based that resiliency reflected in Q4, it was evident. It was discretionary spend and nondiscretionary spend were both up from Q3 to Q4. Categories like retail services, retail goods, fuel and travel, all steady or improved from Q3 to Q4. But it was also, again, broader-based, card-present, card-not-present, credit, debit, both up from Q3 to Q4 and average ticket sizes were actually improved as well into Q4. And so we look at the breadth of the business. In addition, we talked about spend bands. So from your highest spenders to your lower spenders, the growth rates have remained quite steady from Q3 to Q4 with, again, the higher spending categories driving more of the growth, but again, steady from Q3 to Q4. And so resilient, right? How do we then interpret that when we look forward? We reason over that data. And then we also obviously are mindful that there's signals that consumers are a little bit more uncertain. We're mindful of that. But then again, we look at some of the macro data, jobs, the environmental jobs and employment, wage -- personal wage growth, personal balance sheets all remaining relatively steady and healthy. And so as an update, through the month of October, when we look across our key drivers, and that's U.S. payment volumes, cross-border payment transactions for the full month of October is very consistent with what we saw through the 21 days of October that were reported alongside our earnings in a month ago. And so again, no surprise given all the data points. You asked about leading indicators. And we look at all of those KPIs that I just talked about. They're not so much leading as they are coincident, I guess. And so as we look across that, we always start by saying we're not macro economists. We're not going to try to predict what's happening from a macro perspective, but all that data and the stability and the resilience of that data gives us good reason to anticipate that underlying performance and underlying economy will remain steady and strong, and that's what's assumed in all the sort of guidance that we gave for Q1 as well as FY '26.

Okay. Well, that's encouraging. Maybe we could drill down on cross-border. Its resilience as well has been impressive given this complex macro picture. We've also gotten some data from some smaller players in the industry on just choppiness in travel. I'm just curious how you think about its resilience and the sustainability of these trends.

Yes. It has been resilient, as you called it. We saw resilience again throughout all of FY '25. And over the last 2 quarters, if you just look at the numbers, right, total cross-border growth ex intra-Europe, 11% Q3, 11% Q4. E-commerce cross-border, 13% in Q3, 13% in Q4. And travel cross-border, 9% Q3, 10% Q4, so ticked up slightly in Q4, really based on stronger commercial volumes, commercial travel volumes and some timing in CEMEA related to holidays. And so again, through the last 6 months, last half of FY '25 and really throughout the course of the year, we've seen strong, steady, resilient cross-border volumes. Now sustainability, the best -- I have an opinion on it, of course, but I think the best way is the way that we approach all problems like this. We are data-driven. We look -- we try to analyze sort of what we see. So what do we see in the data? And how do we sort of analyze the trends? We can kind of break it down along some of the categories that I just talked about. So if I look at e-commerce, cross-border e-commerce. Pre-COVID, it grew faster than travel. Post-COVID, it's growing faster than travel. It's stayed in the low teens pretty consistently. That's been a strong performer and has continued to be so again, pre and post-COVID. It was about 1/3 of the business pre-COVID. It's actually 40% of the business today. So the faster-growing part of cross-border growing is a bigger share of the business. So that's structurally good. Travel has bounced around from high single to low double. We see a little bit more variability with cross-border travel, again, ahead of the pre-COVID levels. And so when you sort of add that together, however, travel, whether it comes back to pre-COVID levels or not, structurally, we have the benefit of more of the business being weighted toward the faster-growing e-commerce. But obviously, we'll have to wait and see to see how all the travel. Things like we have some exciting things in the horizon like FIFA, which will attract, I think, travelers into -- World Cup, that is, which will attract travelers into North America, and we'll continue to watch -- be very watchful about cross-border, but we do see it as a resilient and sustained strong driver of our business.

That's great. I mean that was going to be my other question. Just 2026 FIFA World Cup is going to be in North America. And you guys do think it's a major catalyst for inbound travel. And that inbound travel into U.S. is kind of more profitable, right, in cross-border?

Yes. We have talked about it being a strong yield corridor. I mean, here's how I think about World Cup and FIFA. We're obviously -- we partner with FIFA on across a sort of a broad category. There's incredible excitement. I think there's 100-plus matches, 16 cities, 3 countries involved, excitement from consumers clearly, but also our clients. And so we already have 70 clients engaged with us on marketing services related to World Cup and FIFA. And so we could leverage the World Cup and FIFA brand for advertising, for co-branding. We can help them launch branded credit cards. We can also create very unique experiences at the events for our clients to host their clients. And so there's a number of marketing services that will be great for the business in FY '26. And then, of course, we are anticipating an influx of fans to come watch football -- I was about to call it soccer, but football matches for our global audiences out there throughout the course of this year. Now that's all embedded, both the marketing services and the cross-border volumes are embedded in the guide for FY '26 that I did provide with the cross-border piece, the match is really happening in June and July. And then with Marketing Services, we anticipate a little bit more even spread throughout the course of the year because clients are activating it both before and after.

All right. Moving on to VAS growth, value-added services. It's been quite strong in the low to mid-20s, now represents almost 30% of total revenues. Can you just talk about what's driving the strong outperformance, new products versus old?

Yes. Very proud of where we are with our VAS business, big market opportunity that we've articulated a very clear strategy, and the teams have been executing really well. It's reflected in the growth number that you just quoted. And in fact, we've seen some acceleration of growth in the back half of the year, 26% and 25% over the last 2 quarters. Now we did also acknowledge that some of that's benefiting from the timing of pricing in FY '25. But regardless, even ex that, the business has continued to execute really well and deliver strong growth. So check, it's -- the business continues to execute really, really well. Your question is around like sort of new and what's driving it?

And maybe just let me clarify. Like I think we get a lot of questions about the durability.

The durability, got it.

And so I think everyone sort of assumes like it's just growing off a base and you're constantly evolving the product set to add new products. So maybe you could just talk about how that sustains the growth.

Yes. Let me try to address together with an example. Let's talk about what we saw in the fourth quarter. And each quarter, we kind of highlight some of the things that are driving our business. In the fourth quarter, there's probably a good example that kind of maybe illustrate some of the things that you're asking about VAS. So, in Q4, again, we had a very strong VAS quarter, and we talked about the drivers. We have 4 portfolios within the VAS business, each over $1 billion and each growing healthy. One of those portfolios is issuing solutions. That's a business that -- where we have products and services really targeted toward our issuing clients. And we talked about that as a driver of performance in the fourth quarter. And if we just click into that, I think that might help sort of solidify or make concrete some of the examples. So what drove issuing solutions? Well, there was 2 things that we called out, both network products and card benefits. But what are network products? Here's an example of 2 network products. So we have Visa stop payment service, for example. That's a service that helps consumers by helping them basically turn off recurring or installment payments on behalf of the consumer, so they don't have to go through sort of the sometimes difficult process of canceling like a subscription. So that's a service. For example, that's a network product. Another one is stand-in processing, Visa stand-in processing. So that -- in the event that an issuer can't process goes down and can't process a transaction, the service actually smartly reasons over that transaction and decides whether they should accept or process that transaction. Therefore, the sale is not lost. And so those are 2 examples, network products that are doing really well. And you can see they're very sticky. They're related to the Visa transaction. Card benefits, which is another sort of big business within Issuing Solutions, it's really all about rewards and people love their reward cards. As we've seen consistently, we have a platform called Visa Infinite. We partner with many issuers who really take advantage of the benefits that they're able to use and differentiate their product against other rewards cards. We saw -- we named a couple this last quarter, Scotia Wealth Management, Truist on their business premium. Those are both Visa Infinite products. There's more and more interest in that product as well. And so those are 2 different ways to think about like drivers of the business. They are Visa transactions and premium cards in force, which both are very sticky sorts of things. In terms of sustainability then, just to kind of finish that thought, a, it is -- there's a close relationship in the issuing portfolio, for example, to Visa transactions, as I talked about. We are executing really well. And our sales and go-to-market forces also have access to what we call value in kind. And so in many cases, clients have already earned these incentives that they often use and like to use against value-added services. And so those are just some examples of why I think the business against this very large $520 billion TAM that we've articulated as well. And so again, big opportunity, strong execution, good products and services. And that's just one portfolio. If you look back over the course of the last couple of years, I think in each quarter, we've talked about acceptance. We've talked about risk. We've talked about advisory and other. And so across the breadth of the business, value-added services is doing really, really well.

Yes. You guys are involved in a lot more than just moving money around, it seems, a lot of people just think of it one dimensionally. I guess maybe we could double-click a little bit on Pismo. It's something you talked about on the last earnings call. And it's a newer acquisition that you guys made on the card issuing processing side. So could you just talk about how that business compares to your legacy business, which is debit processing? And then how will it help you sort of expand in value-added services and your value props to banks?

Great. So let's first start talking about sort of our 2 services that are in this space that you're referring to. So you talked about our -- you called it our legacy debit processing business. DPS, it's been a very successful business. In the U.S., it is our traditional issuer processor for debit, primarily in the U.S. And so that's been a successful business and has done really well. And then there's Pismo, which we closed that acquisition just less than 2 years ago now. And what is Pismo? Well, Pismo is cloud native. It's a modern tech stack. It's issuer processing, core banking. And it's not just debit, but it's credit, it's prepaid, it's -- and debit and commercial. So it's multiproduct, and it's global, so outside the U.S. as well. So you can sort of immediately see how those 2 businesses kind of complement each other, one being debit in the U.S., the other being cloud native and multiproduct and global. If you think about like what -- which kind of tells you why we were interested in it, right? Like it really began with the customer journey. Customers are telling us as many banks and clients were thinking about their digital transformation, they looked to Visa and said, "Hey, can you help us along that journey? We're looking to modernize. We're looking to partner with a company like Visa on the core tech banking stack." We looked around the world and of course, found Pismo as what we view to be the best-in-class from a product standpoint. So those -- that's how it came together. It's been, like I said, just under 2 years. We're expanding globally. We talked about the 5 countries, 4 region expansion in FY '25. The client interest is very high. And the 2 -- from a go-to-market standpoint, these 2, again, do complement each other quite well. We're able to offer DPS as a sort of traditional issuer processing service and DPS around the world and Pismo around the world as well. And then I think your last question is sort of like how does that then pull through more VAS. I think there's -- we think of it 2 ways, right? We think of it as both traditional issuers and, I guess, digital native issuers for digital native banks, they could be faster to adopt and implement our solutions with Pismo. So it's just less friction in that. And for traditional banks who I referred to earlier talking about their interest in becoming more digitally transformed. And as they do so, Pismo is often a great solution for them as well. And so I think it resonates with both. And I think in both cases, any time that we have an opportunity to engage with clients in a deep, deep way, we have the opportunity to provide a more expansive set of services across our VAS business. And so I think there's stickiness there as well.

Okay. Maybe we can then just like think about the financial picture of value-added services, VAS. Maybe you could talk a little bit about the margin profile of that business relative to the core payment processing business and then just the scalability and the interplay between these 2 businesses.

I talked about all the reasons why I like value-added services from a strategy and product and customer standpoint through the lens of -- through my lens, right, through the lens of a CFO, it's a great business, right? Because from a revenue standpoint, it's high growth, highly recurring. It's -- there's a strong relationship to the transaction. I could talk about that here in a second. But -- and transactions are -- have as much recurring like sort of features as most true like classically recurring businesses. And so it's highly recurring, it's high growth, and it is high margin. And the best evidence of that is that you look at the size and scale of the business today, it's $10.8 billion in FY '25, 27% of our total revenues. You talked about the diversification, right? There it is, 27% of our total revenues are value-added services. And we've grown to that size and scale, and it hasn't been a drag on Visa margins to date. And so again, sort of evidence, I guess, of that -- the nature of the business. Well, why is that? We've talked about sort of the different profiles. If I click into what drives each of these 4 portfolios, I think that is insightful perhaps. I talked about issuing solutions already. That's really driven by Visa transactions. The other portfolios are acceptance solutions, which are driven by network transactions, both Visa and non-Visa and risk and security solutions, same network transactions, Visa and non-Visa. And then the fourth portfolio being advisory and other, which is largely marketing services. That's really driven by engagements. And those engagements often drive -- help clients grow faster. And then -- so there's like this virtuous benefit if they're growing faster and being more successful, that is good for Visa as well. And so if you look across the business, 3 of the 4 portfolios are very much attached to the core processing transaction, whether it's Visa or outside. And then like I said, the fourth one has both a direct and indirect benefit. So as you look across the portfolios, it really is high-growth recurring and very high margin. And so we have 4 portfolios, all over $1 billion a piece, all growing double digits, healthy margins. They're really a powerful driver of revenue and profit growth at a scale that would exceed benchmarks, I think, of most SaaS companies that sort of trade on recurring revenue. Plenty of opportunity in front of us and a really good business and excited to continue to try to execute well against it.

If I had to like take at one part of earnings, it would have been expenses, which were somewhat elevated. Could you just talk about maybe sort of what was driving that higher? I mean are you guys investing? Obviously, the FIFA event this year. And maybe you could just talk a little bit about that.

Sure. It's a very dynamic time in our industry, a really exciting time. The pace of innovation, as we could all see, is very fast, perhaps even accelerating. If you -- some of the topics of late around things like stablecoin and agentic. Clearly, there's a lot of interest and innovation and investment happening in Visa and also in the entire ecosystem. And so I do think it's important as we think about preserving our long-term growth aspirations that we continue to be at the front center and continue to invest in these things. So it's not like some structural -- our guidance for FY '26 is that revenue and expenses kind of grow generally in line. And that's not a structural reason. I think it's our responsibility to continue to invest in the ecosystem. And so let me give you maybe some flavor of some of the things that we're investing in. I mentioned already stablecoin and agentic. These are hot topics, I guess.

We're going to talk about them.

Yes. Yes, they're certainly hot topics. But some of the places we're investing, like in stablecoin, 130 card issuance programs already across 40 countries. We have stablecoin settlement that's now at an annualized run rate of $2.5 billion, which is 2.5x higher than it was just from August. So it's rapidly increasing. We've launched a Visa Direct pilot with stablecoin, right, as well. And so those are just examples. Agentic commerce, we introduced Visa Intelligent Commerce back in April. We were early. I think we were one of the first to come to market to really talk about that with a list of marquee partners. We've already are transacting live transactions there, piloting those. And so agentic commerce is certainly an area. But I would even point us back to what we talked about at Investor Day. We went through a whole list of things of priorities that we're going after, whether it's on the consumer side, affluent and cross-border marketing partnerships with FIFA and F1, thinking about going after -- in CMS, going after SMB and LMM on the VAS side, all the products and services as well as go-to-market and sales engineering. So there's just an incredible set of opportunities that are exciting to us, and we think will continue to drive our long-term growth that we're going to continue to really be front-footed about. I would say maybe the final point just to close on it, though, is we totally get it, like we understand that what's important is not just investing, but being very, very good stewards of that investment. I think we've done that in the past. And I think it's incumbent on us to of course, take some bets, right? And when you take bets, some of them are going to work and some of them are not. And we have to be responsible to really double down on the things that are working and course correct on the things that are not. And it's not lost on us that it's very important that we continue to be mindful of shareholders and their interest and continuing to make sure that we're being disciplined in that and delivering profit growth that matters to shareholders very much. And so not lost on us by any means.

You guys have executed. Maybe we could talk a little bit about pricing because that's going to impact Q1 and FY '26 as a whole. Could you just walk us through that and how you calibrate your pricing to ensure you're compensated for value?

Okay. So let me talk a little bit specifically about what we said for FY '26 and then maybe expand on that a little bit just to think through the structure of your question. So in the first guide that we gave for FY '26 just a month ago, we said for the full year FY '26, the benefit, the contribution from pricing will be similar to what we saw in FY '25. And the timing of the implementation of new pricing will also be similar, meaning back half loaded. So new pricing in FY '26 back half loaded. That was the case in FY '25 as well. And so then if you do the math on how that sort of plays out through the course of 2026, from a quarterly contribution standpoint, it's a little bit more uniform because of the 2 years pricing timing with Q1 being the largest beneficiary from a year-over-year standpoint. So we do think the growth will be highest for us in Q1. So that's the guidance for FY '26. Now zooming out a little bit, maybe just talking about philosophy and our overall approach to pricing as well as our overall approach to pricing in FY '26. So the words we've used -- I've used frequently is that we price to value, which means we regularly introduce -- make adjustments to pricing as we introduce new products, new services that will benefit our clients, merchants or make the ecosystem better or stronger. And we do this -- we can do this in multiple ways, and we do this by adjusting fees up or down in some cases, or we could also provide incentives via fees or interchange that encourage adoption of new practices that, again, strengthen the ecosystem and benefit the ecosystem. So in FY '26, one of the focus areas has been -- is e-commerce. And so for e-commerce, we've taken a good look, and we've introduced -- we've revised pricing associated with some e-commerce fees and tokens that really encourage the adoption of more authenticated tokens, encourage more sharing of data and again, strengthen the overall ecosystem. So our approach has been from a global basis, we've adjusted fees associated with authenticated tokens and enhanced data as well as some of the most value-added -- sought-after value-added services associated with tokens. And then secondly, in the U.S., we're actually lowering interchange for merchants who opt into both enhanced data and the token services as well, and that brings down the total cost, and so that's our approach on e-commerce for FY '26. When we do this, we think that there's -- it will really benefit e-commerce. And when we do that, it brings down overall fraud, which has the benefit of saving billions of dollars for merchants in the ecosystem. And so that's our approach to pricing in '26.

Wonderful. Maybe we shift to stablecoins and agentic commerce. Those are 2 topics of significant discussion of late and obviously, meaningful areas of investment for Visa, as you mentioned. Could you just talk about the commercialization aspect of it and how quickly it evolves? Like how quickly do you think it contributes to Visa?

I mean my disclaimer to start is it's early on both these topics, even though they are taking up a lot of conversation, interesting conversation. But when I say it's early, it's also like recognizing that the pace of innovation is pretty rapid. I talked about the one example I gave in terms of pace was the stablecoin settlement, which has gone up by 2.5x since August. And so you could clearly see it's rapid innovation happening. So let's talk about maybe each. I talked already a little bit about stablecoin, right? So where we think about like the different vectors of stablecoin issuance -- we talked about the 130 card programs, 40 countries. We've also been involved in crypto and stablecoin even before stablecoin existed for a while. Since 2020, now we've enabled about $140 billion of crypto and stable transactions across our network. That's about $100 billion associated with purchasing -- using Visa credentials, purchasing of crypto and over $35 billion in consumers using or customers using Visa credentials to spend their crypto and stablecoin. And then the issuance programs that I talked about. So from that sense, we're already monetizing it, right, because that follows traditional card economics. And so you think of all that volume that has run across the network -- runs through the network. I talked about settlement as potentially an unlock for us and for clients to make that more efficient. We're piloting, as I talked about, Visa Direct prefunding model for stablecoin. There's sort of many other vectors that we're looking at. And so it's continuing to evolve very quickly. We're excited about stablecoin. From that standpoint, we think of it as an opportunity certainly. And so we'll continue to invest there. Agentic, it just goes back again 6 months at our product drop event in April, the introduction of Visa Intelligent Commerce, which is really a set of APIs that enable this thing called agentic commerce. They're AI-enabled cards, authentication, tokenization. It's AI-powered personalization, which is really enhancing our data tokens to make it with permission, a more personalized experience for you. And then it's really AI-specific payment instructions that really allow that transaction to happen, controls, rules around like fraud and disputes and things like this. More recently, we've introduced our trusted agent protocol, which really deals with how the agent then deals with the merchant and enables that to happen in a trusted way. And so it's early days. A lot of partners have gotten on board since we started talking about it first in April. I think a lot of -- everyone is sort of talking about it. We're seeing some live transactions, but I think it's even earlier days on the agentic side. But we view both as great opportunities and the role that Visa plays in the ecosystem. I think we can continue to be a leader in both.

So like the bull case for stablecoins is quite disruptive to your model, quite frankly, when you think about it, I think a lot of the bulls talk about cross-border consumer and B2B payments, which are very profitable businesses for you guys. How does Visa think about potential cannibalization of that business with stablecoins? And why do you think it's positive?

Yes, we do think it's positive. And so let me just start there. We do think it's positive. And if you really look at -- we look at it in a couple of different ways. The first place I'd start is to say, if you look at the product market fit for where stablecoin has the most compelling use case, they're often in places where access to U.S. dollars is difficult or their fiat local currency is very volatile and -- or in some cases, cross-border money movement, particularly in the B2B side. And if we look at sort of all those scenarios, there are places where Visa doesn't have great penetration today. And so from -- to your question around sort of cannibalization, it's more white space opportunity, if anything. And so that's how we look at it. I mean, if you think about sort of the cross-border scenario that you described, like at the end of the day, again, is there a compelling consumer use case? Is there a problem that wants to be solved? There's a -- we have -- as travelers, as a consumer travels cross-border, are they going to -- they love their cards. There's almost 5 billion of them out there today, and there's a vast acceptance network, 150 million merchants globally that accept the cards work really well. They love their cards. We just don't think that there's a compelling use case there, but there are ones that are. And also, coincidentally, like if you look at where stablecoin may have the most sort of traction, they're in markets that are earlier in their digitization of payments. And as they adopt -- if there's an accelerated adoption of stablecoin in those markets, it actually will accelerate the digitization of payments. And when that happens, that's actually good for Visa as well. And so we'll be a participant in that. And so when we just look across the universe, access to digital dollars, which is what stablecoin is, it's not really a problem for a lot of the world. They can access U.S. dollars just fine. But when they can't, then stablecoin maybe becomes more compelling. And in those cases, I think Visa has a strong value proposition as well.

Okay. Great. A couple of questions left that I have. One is, as agentic commerce evolves, what do you think Visa's greatest leverage is to win share in that market? I mean, I guess if you fast forward and we now have these aggregators of information that are now throwing out bots, I mean, can they then circumvent the payment in your mind and move volume away from Visa?

Yes. I mean, can and should and will, I guess, maybe those are the ways that I would think about it. Listen, I think there's 2 ways. Obviously, a lot is left to be solved and a lot of questions and a lot of things to continue to -- will progress and be worked on. But 2 things. One is the value and the power and the importance of the network, both in traditional sense, human to human and in the future, agent to agent as well. The network plays an incredibly important role around trust, around security, around rules and governance and compliance, like how do you deal with returns? How do you deal with disputes and fraud and chargebacks and how do you set the rules of governance that all the participants can play. I think Visa and the scale, right, the 5 billion cards or the almost 5 billion cards and the acceptance network that I referred to. And so all those things, I think, are really quite important to transactions in the agent world as well. We'll continue to play a very important role in that, a. And then b, if I think about, again, sort of our leadership in product and innovation. I referred back to our product drop in April. But I think that's just evidence, we were thought leaders in this space. We started talking about agentic commerce with a marquee set of partners very early. We've been in AI for decades, right? Like our products and services have been deeply infused with AI for generations. I think that just shows again that we continue to think of our role as a thought leader and as a product leader, and we've executed really well, and we'll continue to take a leadership position, which I think is important. And there's no right to win, but I think we're in a great position, and we're very happy to continue to invest in these areas.

Well, I think we've run out of time, Chris. This was great. Thank you.