ACS, Actividades de Construcción y Servicios, S.A. (ACS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Good morning, everyone. Thank you very much for joining us, as usual, to this annual earnings presentation, in this case, for the year 2019, the ACS Group. As usual, I'm sitting here with Marcelino Fernández Verdes, CEO of the ACS Group; and Ángel García Altozano, who is Corporate General Manager of the ACS Group. After my presentation, as usual, we will have a Q&A session, and we will answer any questions that you may have. Let me start here by summarizing the highlights of 2019 for the group. First, I'd like to mention the excellent performance of our businesses in 2019 with net attributable profit at EUR 962 million. That's up 5.1%. Earnings that we've obtained in spite of the significant impact, EUR 420 million, of our decision to cease our construction activities in the Middle East, exiting the region and provisioning all the risks connected to our investment in BICC. As you know, our Australian subsidiary, CIMIC, had a 45% stake in that company without operational control, and for some time, had been exploring ways to reduce their exposure and divest of that stake. The worsening market conditions complicated the company's feasibility plans. And as a result, we had to take a drastic decision whose impact on our accounts we've charged fully to 2019. In spite of this, I'd like to underscore our ability to generate cash flow from our operating business, specifically, EUR 2.37 billion in net cash operations before capital investments. And as you can see there, that's a 2.5% increase. This cash flow generation has enabled us to carry out the significant growth investments we've carried out to finance new projects as well as increasing payout for our shareholders and maintaining our net financial debt at practically 0 at the end of the year. We also have a growing backlog of projects in strategic markets for the group, thanks to the significant transport infrastructure and energy project awards in the year. I'd also like to mention the group's strategy which we've been deploying over the last few years along 2 basic pillars: maintaining a balanced risk profile in our businesses, reducing our exposure to higher risk activities and more volatile businesses, whilst concentrating on the more stable activities in the infrastructure sector. If we look at the main metrics in 2019, the figures are the following. Our turnover was EUR 39.049 billion, that's 6.5% higher than previous year, 4.5% in like-for-like terms, that is taking into account the ForEx impact, a growth due to an excellent performance of all the group's businesses. Our backlog is at EUR 77.756 billion, that's 7.7% higher than in 2018, 6% if we take into account the ForEx impact. The EBITDA was EUR 3.148 billion. That's 7% up with respect to the previous year, with an EBITDA margin of 8.1%, which is up 10 basis points. And our EBIT was EUR 2.126 billion, that's up 3.7%. And the margin -- the EBIT margin is down 15 basis points versus the previous year due to a change in our business mix with greater concentration in lower-risk activities. Net attributable profit in 2019 was EUR 962 million, that's 5.1% higher than in 2018. As I've said, and as we will see later in greater detail, 2019 includes the provisioning by CIMIC from their exit in the Middle East, which have been completely offset with the profit or the capital gains generated from the sale of renewable energy assets for EUR 250 million, and the remainder, the EUR 170 million have been covered with an item we have, which is called provisions linked to international risks. Finally, our operating fund cash flow before investments was approximately EUR 2.4 billion, that's 2.5% higher than the previous year. Now I'd also like to mention the group's net debt evolution in the last years. Since 2011, we've reduced our debt level by over EUR 9.3 billion and are currently at a level of less than 0.1x EBITDA in 2017 and now currently at 0.02x EBITDA. Since then, we have maintained a net financial debt, which is practically negligible. This solid financial position -- at the end of 2019, our net debt was EUR 54 million, which is equivalent, as I was saying, to 0.02x EBITDA. In fact, without considering project finance, without recourse to shareholders, the group actually has a net positive treasury position, and in 2019, closed the year with EUR 87 million in net operating cash. Going to a more detailed analysis of our turnover, I'd like to mention that our revenue sources are highly diversified by businesses and geographies with a strong presence in the more developed economies. Our main sources are North America with turnover, which is already half our total production, up 16.4%, Australia with 19%, Europe with 20% and the remaining 11%, including the contributions of Asia, South America and Africa. Backlog at the end of 2019 was EUR 77.756 billion and the breakdown is similar to that of our turnover. I should mention that 86% of our backlog is also from developed economies, North America with 44% of backlog and up 11.8% in 2019. Excellent evolution of our backlog in Australia, which now represents 25% of the total and is up 7.7% as well as the recovery of our backlog in Europe, which is now 18% of the total and is up 8.6% in the year. As you can see in these charts, our main markets have had a very positive evolution in 2019. By countries, biggest contributors to our turnover are, again, the U.S., with 43% of our turnover; Australia with 19%; Spain with 14%; Canada with 4% and Germany and the U.K. with 2% and 1%, respectively. And these countries, overall, contribute 85% practically of our total turnover. I should emphasize the excellent performance of the American market, with sales in the U.S. at close to EUR 17 million (sic) [ EUR 17 billion ], up 19.2%, while in Canada, over EUR 1.6 million (sic) [EUR 1.6 billion ], up 10.4% with respect to the previous year. Our turnover in Australia remains at EUR 7.3 billion. And the Spanish market, still seeing significant growth in renewable energy projects, with a turnover of EUR 5.419 billion, up 4% in the year. As for our backlog, there's been a strong growth in contract awards, particularly in the U.S. and Australian markets, which have contributed to the growth of the backlog. Specifically, the backlog in the U.S. was EUR 28.3 billion, which is up 17.6%, with relevant awards in construction as well as civil engineering projects and services. Backlog in Australia is at EUR 19.4 billion and up 7.7% in the year, thanks to an excellent trend in the awards of civil engineering projects. And in Spain, the backlog at the end of the year was EUR 7.5 billion, that's down 3.3%. I should also mention the award of the contracts for the high-speed train station at Euston, London, which has doubled our backlog in the U.K. in the last year. So all in all, our geographical diversification guarantees the stability of our turnover if there are downturns in certain markets. Our construction turnover is almost at EUR 31 billion, that's up 7.5%. Excellent performance of our construction business is driven by growth in the U.S. and Canada, which represent about 60% of the turnover in this area. These 2 countries increased their sales -- turnover 18% overall. In Australia, different businesses had a very positive trend, up 2.3%, adjusted by exchange rate impact, thanks to an excellent performance of our construction, mining and services businesses. And turnover in Spain down 6.5%. Turnover in Industrial Services, EUR 6.53 billion, up 2.3%. As you know, the Industrial Services business has a very diversified and dynamic business model. Their services are diversified in various sectors where we have expertise, including industrial, energy, transport, and activities can easily be exported, all of the -- which are drivers to profitability of the business. Renewable energy projects in Spain as well as the execution of large industrial plant projects more than offset the completion of major projects in the previous year. And finally, service turnover in 2019 was EUR 1.579 billion. That's up 5% with respect to the previous year. Our exposure to the national market is 93.5% of our turnover, up 4.1%, whilst the European market, basically, Portugal and the U.K., are 7% and grew 18% last year. The Group is still focusing on the operational efficiency of each of its businesses. Our EBITDA in Infrastructure was EUR 2.421 billion, that's 8.1% more than in 2018. Our EBITDA in Industrial Services was EUR 693 million, that's up 3.5%. Our margin over sales was 10.6%, that's stable with respect to the previous year and demonstrates the sustainability of our margins in this area, thanks to the diversification of businesses and markets. Our EBITDA in Services was EUR 94 million, also up 7.6%, with a margin of 5.9%. That's 10 basis points higher than the previous year, thanks in part to the growth of our international activity in this business, particularly in the U.K. Our turnover in Abertis -- our volumes grew in the year, thanks to very solid increases in traffic in the main countries where they operate. Spain was up 4.3% and France up 1%. In like-for-like terms, revenue in the period rose by about 4.2%. Our EBITDA grew 7.6%, whilst the like-for-like net attributable profit rose 9%. Strategic plan for Abertis is focused on improving efficiencies by reducing cost, EUR 150 million annually and investing in new assets so as to replace different cash flow sources and diversify our geographic backlog. As you know, in October, Abertis and GIC signed an agreement for the acquisition of Red de Carreteras de Occidente in Mexico, which is one of the largest toll road operators in the country, managing 5 concessions with a total of 876 kilometers, which are located in the central western region of the country. Investment by Abertis for their 50.1% stake is approximately of EUR 1.5 billion. Net attributable profit, as I said, was EUR 962 million. That's up 5.1%, with excellent trends in all our business areas, and as I've said, with a neutral effect of discontinued or nonrecurring activities. Profit from the infrastructure area, up 4.6% after the integration of Abertis in June 2018 and has contributed a full year, whilst it was only 8 months the previous year. Our construction business includes Dragados with profit of EUR 117 million and HOCHTIEF whose contribution to our net -- an operating margin drop because of the change in the shareholding structure from our initial 71.8% stake to the 50.4% stake after our sale to Atlantia in Q4 of 2018. Without this effect, net operating profit from -- net margin from construction would have increased by 10%. Our net profit from Industrial Services up 7.8%, EUR 350 million, driven by a recovery of activity in the Spanish market. These earnings do not include the profits obtained by energy asset divestments, mainly the partial sale of PV plants in Spain in December 2019. Our net profit in Services was EUR 38 million, up 3.3%. Although in previous earnings presentations, we've already explained in detail the earnings of CIMIC and HOCHTIEF, respectively, let me give you a brief summary of the impact that BICC has had on our results. Worsening market conditions in the region have made it difficult to undertake the company's feasibility plans as a result of which CIMIC has reconsidered its stake in BICC, which was 45%, but without control on management. Their decision to seize activities in the Middle East required a provision of EUR 1.145 billion net of taxes to cover all possible contingencies. This risk for ACS was EUR 420 million -- this impact for ACS was EUR 420 million, minus minorities, as you see in the summary table. From ACS, we have allocated EUR 170 million of the provisions we have in our balance sheet for international risks. And this, together with EUR 250 million in profit obtained from the divestment of renewable energy assets in 2019, have offset the negative impact of this departure from the Middle East. Let me now analyze the free cash flows from operations, so the remaining operating cash flow available for new growth and investment activities and paying dividend to shareholders. EBITDA that we made in 2019 was EUR 3.148 billion. Now out of that figure, we paid out EUR 552 million in net financial expenses, taxes and other items. That leaves us a total gross operating cash flow figure of EUR 2.596 billion. The variation in operating working capital led to an outflow of EUR 193 million in the year. The greater contribution of lower-risk activities and the different profile of our cash flow funds explains the difference in that variation in the working capital, if you compare it to the previous financial year. In addition, the sum total of the investments made in operations, and the payment for operating leases totaled EUR 1.046 billion. And out of that figure, about EUR 700 million correspond to CIMIC. This increase in our investment is due to the strong growth in our more capital-intensive activities such as mining services whose business activity has been growing at an average rate of 20% per annum over the last 3 years. So that takes us to a free cash flow total of EUR 1.358 billion, EUR 975 million are attributed to ACS. Once we strip out the flows that are attributable to minorities I talked to you from CIMIC and that is equal to 101% of our net profit. The cash flow from financial net investments and in projects that total EUR 690 million. Let me highlight the following areas: Infrastructure, we invested approximately EUR 100 million there in the capital for our major road and rail concessions in the United States, Canada and Europe. There were also disinvestments totaling EUR 90 million, including the sale of the stake that the Group had in a number of different concessions in the United States and Canada. Industrial Services earmarked a total of EUR 674 million to developing different types of energy assets such as photovoltaic plants, wind farms, transmission lines, et cetera, and localization, such as Spain, U.K., Mexico and Brazil. There was also a EUR 340 million divestment made in euros in different energy assets such as PV farms and plants, wind farms, the transmission lines. EUR 170 million out of that figure was for the transaction of PV plants, which have still not been collected. The Group maintains a net debt position in our balance sheet of EUR 54 million. That was at the close of 2019 financial year. The strong operating cash flow generation that we have maintained over the last few periods have comfortably offset the investment we've made in our concession activity and increase in remuneration to our shareholders. I wanted to mention a number of the contracts that we have been awarded in construction, which have helped to make our backlog grow. The -- 1 example is the PPP Cross River Rail Project, that's the new 10-kilometer metro line in Brisbane, in the capital -- in Queensland, Australia. There's a project also to expand the tunnel in Hampton Roads, that's Virginia. The building of Oak Common Station and the upgrading of Euston Station so as to adapt the station to the new high-speed rail line in the U.K. The extension of the contract to provide mining services in Queensland, Australia. There's also the construction of a plant -- a water treatment plant in U.S. and the upgrading of the Monash Freeway in Victoria, Australia. Turning to the main industrial contract awards. I would highlight the engineering, the provision of supplies and construction and testing of the floating offshore wind farm, that's in Scotland. Its normal capacity is 50 megawatts. Another project, basic engineering, detailed engineering and supply of equipment and materials for the construction and implementation of 2 sulfuric acid plants in Morocco. There's a project also to extend out, 280 megawatts, the combined cycle power plant in the Ivory Coast, construction of 2 PV plants in Japan, too. Under the heading of Services, there are contracts for aircraft cleaning for Iberia and Vueling in Spain and also hospitals in Barcelona. The Home Help Service contracts for Madrid City Hall, also for the City Council in Durham -- in the County of Durham. And let me now move on to the last part of my presentation to talk about our positioning in the Infrastructure sector, which is still highly competitive, and it's based on 4 key pillars: one, we maintain our industry leadership worldwide that allows us to be a benchmark name in the industry. We also have a business backlog to develop and maintain infrastructure with a balanced risk profile. We can talk about that later, if you like, 2, 3. We are still detecting good opportunities of investment in our strategic markets that will allow us to grow sustainably, and profitably over the next few years. And four, lastly, our financial position is still highly robust. And as such, it will allow us to take on future investments in concession projects and continue to give an attractive payout to our shareholders. As you know, the group is a leading company worldwide in engineering and construction sectors, as acknowledged by the prestigious journal ENR every year. We have been at the top of the ranking of international companies in engineering and construction in the world since 2012. We also hold a very relevant position in the different activity segments that we do business in. And I can also add too is that we are the leading construction group in construction management. We have the highest turnover under the cost-plus method because you know that we have no-risk contracts in -- of course, that is -- our main company in the U.S. is the top one in the U.S. In construction and infrastructure development, our business model is more and more integrated with a risk profile that is highly controlled based on 3 key points in our strategy of integration of our business model throughout the whole value chains from design, construction, maintenance of projects, all infrastructure projects right up to the operation of them too. We have been also evolving our contractual models and our relationship with clients to make sure that we can keep tight control of the risks in construction development projects. And lastly, we focused our growth on developed markets that offer us a stable framework in operation, financial and legal terms. As you know, our positioning in the whole value chain for the development and operation of transport infrastructures has been reinforced over the last 2 years by acquisition of a significant stake in Abertis. And I know that stake has allowed us to increase our presence -- our footprint in the sector. And our infrastructure development companies, the greenfield infrastructure development companies, Iridium, HOCHTIEF PPP, specific partnership still allow us to attack target opportunities in our target markets, in North America, Europe and Australia, and that means that we can have better access to tenders that are coming up. Abertis too, supported by its strategic partners, as you know, Atlantia, HOCHTIEF and ACS, is investing and operating infrastructures operated under concessions. I did mention before that controlling stake that we have recently acquired in RCO, the Mexican company, and we're exploring new opportunities in brownfield projects through that company so that we can diversify its portfolio and its revenue sources. Moreover, the group is still the leader in the infrastructure development sector, and it has been the leader for more than 10 years now. Specifically, the group has a portfolio of 94 concession assets, 70% of which are currently being operated. These assets account for a total investment that is under management of more than EUR 57 billion, and the investment that is committed by the ACS Group in these projects totals to approximately EUR 1.3 billion. About 2/3 of that figure has already been paid out. So this figure show the commitment that we have with the development of concessions in our group, which we have very high expectations about as we move forward. The energy and water infrastructure sector is also a sector in which we hold a highly competitive position at the moment. We have a backlog of projects totaling 70 different assets, renewable energy projects, transmission line projects, desalination, irrigation and water treatment projects as well as other energy assets. Our renewable energy assets totaled almost 2,700 megawatts, including the megawatts that have -- we recently integrated in a sales agreement, but at the end of the year was still in our portfolio. ACS' contribution in projects totals EUR 1 billion, with total investment of more than EUR 5.7 billion. The group has a very extensive track record in the green technology and renewable energy sector, as shown by the 180 projects that we've been developing and with the investment that we're managing, which is above EUR 14.5 billion. A second pillar in our strategy is to minimize our operating risk. And to do that, we are focusing on 3 different strategies. One, we are making sure that the contracts we take on have a lower risk in development and execution, so we can make sure we can bring into alignment the interest of all different parties and have a more balanced risk profile. We want to be more selective, secondly, on the major projects that we take on with third parties. And so we can keep on schedule for costs and deadlines there could be initial risk. And thirdly, we want to promote PPPs and concession projects, where we can have tighter control of risks and cover the whole value chain. Lastly, let me highlight to you that we are growing in regions where the group already has a stable footprint, and there are excellent prospects for very positive growth in the infrastructure sector. The ACS Group has already identified a portfolio of more than 150 projects, PPPs, for a total value of EUR 230 billion to be developed over the next 4 years. Now they are all located in the group's strategic regions as you can see in the recent changes in our project portfolio. As for the portfolio of projects to promote renewable energies, we have more than 6,200 megawatts, out of which 3,200 megawatts are NPV plants and 3,000 megawatts in wind farms, and these figures show you that we are one of the most dynamic players in the sector now. Lastly, let me conclude this presentation by summarizing the main highlights and milestones of the financial year. First of all, once again, for another year, we have delivered on our growth, profitability and debt targets. And secondly, we have enormous capacity for further investments, thanks to the very solid financial position we have in our balance sheet and our strategic position in the most developed economies that have high potential for growth, and that also allows us to keep up a very attractive policy to provide returns to our shareholders. All in all, we hope to be able to meet expectations for growth and profitability over the next few years, in line with what we've achieved over the last 3 years. In other words, the growth in net profit, in like-for-like terms, will be higher than 5%, backed by solid cash generation in our business activities. Two, we will continue to remunerate our shareholders with a 65% payout of our profits. And thirdly, we will maintain a solid financial position with very, very low leverage level. Before I finish the presentation, I would like to say, and I always do like to say this. Thank you very much, once again, to the more than 190,000 people who have made their contribution to the excellent results the group has achieved in 2019, 190,431 men and women who have worked together with us to make ACS Group a benchmark company in our sector and provide us with so much value. Thank you very much for being here today, and we will open the floor for questions. Thank you.

I have a couple of questions. The first is about the strategy, given the evolution of the HOCHTIEF, CIMIC and ACS' shares, might you perhaps consider being more active with maybe share buybacks or by acquiring a bigger stake in HOCHTIEF or CIMIC? I'd also like to ask you about Dragados and the outlook for margins in that business.

Okay. Right now, we are not considering investing our resources to increase our stakes in HOCHTIEF or CIMIC. What we are doing is thinking about 2 very important things. One is what -- we have about 75% of our business with very low-risk turnover, which is mining, which is an -- and then there is the industrial activities and the concessions. And the remaining 25%, which are high-risk construction projects, we want to decrease and focus essentially on completing those projects for our own concessions and our own businesses, thereby reducing the risk because we will be present in the whole chain end-to-end. And also, we're focusing on modifying or desisting from some contracts where all the risk is taken by the contractor or the construction company. That's a policy which Marcelino will be explaining. We're already modifying contracts of that type in Australia and in the U.S. because our company, which already has these very solid 4 pillars, does not feel that it has to take on those risks. That's as far as risk management. And then as far as investing on resources, frankly, we prefer to invest in our own projects, in our own concession projects, which we will be developing over the next years. And as I've said, we have a lot of opportunities which are a lot more profitable.

Dragados. Okay, about the margin outlook for Dragados.

Well, our outlook from -- we're very focused on margins in Dragados in order to reduce those risks as I was saying, which in some cases are inherent to construction projects. But as I've said, Marcelino will explain in more detail. We are looking at how we can mitigate or reduce or eliminate those risks and that's an effort that will continue over this year because that's really -- in some of the construction projects, there is high risk, which we don't see the need to take on, frankly.

We've tried -- we've begun this derisking process for these high-risk contracts in the sense that the terms and conditions in the contract where we felt very imbalanced. And so in a lot of contracts already -- and we started in the last 2 years, not just for new contracts, but also for existing contracts, we've started to open talks with our clients to see how we might, in an orderly fashion, balance the risks in them amongst the 2 parties. And in fact, there are several contracts, current contracts where we've already modified the risk profile, where we've already reached agreements with our clients, so that the contracts will be more of the alliance type contract, as we've been saying, which are contracts where the relationship is based more on the estimated budget, which enables you throughout the process to best manage the costs and the cash flows. And so when we talk about margins and our outlook and so on, what we're seeing is a convergence towards that set of process which are more of a cost-plus fee type arrangement with much lower risk, but of course, lower margins as well, as is the case, for example, as our Chairman was saying, with Turner, which is purely a cost-plus fee company, has lower margins, but it's very stable, very low risk, and it generates significant cash flow and has had significant growth. So that's the process, derisking. We believe that, that's the right path to follow. And we're moving towards that goal from all directions. In ongoing projects, that could, at some point, obviously, affect cash flow generation. Because, as you know, in major projects, what we had was an upfront cash payment which was very big and then throughout the process, that was gradually recovered. But in these other processes or arrangements where risk is shared and where the only risk is that you might get it wrong and not inherent to the business itself, what we're doing is to have a more constant cash flow aligned with the actual generation of revenues and costs. That's not something that can happen overnight. We started this process a couple of years ago. And in some places, we already have Alliance type contracts in a significant number, say, 25% of our backlog and that applies not just to Dragados, but to all our construction businesses. Also in Australia, the Australian construction business is following the same process. And we are embarked on this ongoing dialogue with our clients so that we can gradually move in this direction. And in fact, I think this year, you've already seen how in our margins, specifically in Dragados, as you've seen, there's a slight adjustment, which is basically due to that change.

Guillermo Fernández speaking. I have a couple of questions for you. The first one is about your ex-HOCHTIEF working capital, which we were familiar with. We knew about the changes there. But could you give -- more than EUR 300 million, I believe, in impairment. And could you give us more color on that? Where does that come from? And what is the reasoning behind it? And going back to Dragados, we do understand that the derisking has a lot to do with some of the reduction in your margins, but you didn't mention the word provision, but I'm sure there would have been some additional costs that you've had to take on in projects. Could you mention which projects and how much?

Working capital, first of all. Essentially, it was EUR 270 million, I think, to be more exact for the whole group. If you did notice, over the last quarter, we were able to recoup about 1.2. So it's about 1.4 now. It also has a lot to do with the type of contracts that are coming to end and the new ones that are starting. We've completed some pretty big contracts. So the upfront fees have actually come to an end, and the new ones are contracts that don't have those advanced payments. So with the combination of that, you've got upfront money that's coming to an end, new contracts that don't have the upfront money. And that means that you have the modification there, the changes in working capital. Same for capital. So you have less upfront amounts that are being paid out. So the risk is certainly lower. The margins come down slightly. That's really the explanation. And as for provisions, there have been no specific provisions made, they're just the usual provisions for our usual construction projects. There's been no specific downward provision for any big project, just the recurring ones. Whenever you're actually starting a new construction projects, you're putting new provisions and you can release them if you do things properly. So as soon as you start the projects, you have more provisions.

Let me just add to what Ángel said on that point. Yes, he is right. We are actually completing some of our major projects at this point. And when that happens, there is a settlement that has to take place, and it is never done overnight. Of course, it takes a while to actually sort out the final financial side of it, and that's why you perhaps have those mismatches that you're talking about.

Any other questions from the room? If not, we'll start hearing questions from the webcast.

[ Luis ], go ahead.

I'm going to try and be organized. There's been a lot of questions about Dragados and the performance in the last quarter, particularly, and the announcement by Tutor Perini on provisions for Seattle. Does that have something to do with the falling margins in the last quarter? And what is the plan or the expected trend for margins in Dragados, I mean, long term? You've already said something about it, but could you clarify a bit more about that impact in the last quarter?

Well, I think about Tutor Perini's comment, he was referring to that particular Seattle project, and we had been very -- in our claim, when we -- when there was that change for CRR-15, we had to -- we had some projects that were pending certification and Tutor Perini hadn't done any of that before, and so their impact has been bigger. As for margins, we've already explained that as we reduce risk, naturally, margins also tighten, but there has been a drop in the margin currently as a consequence of the new contracts of this nature that are coming in and the old contracts that are coming to an end.

Next question is from [ Barry Norris ]. It's a question which is about our position in HOCHTIEF. This is a general question. What strategically is the advantage of being in HOCHTIEF seeing as it is a listed subsidiary? What is the value for ACS' shareholders? What's the value for us is the question? And there's also a question about the fact that Atlantia is a shareholder in HOCHTIEF. And do we have any intention to increase our position there with them?

Well, let me take that question about Abertis?

No, it's HOCHTIEF.

It was -- yes. Well, the second was Abertis, wasn't it?

The question was whether the relationship between Atlantia and HOCHTIEF, what -- how it affects us?

Well, I think that is because that some news has been -- has come out in Italy in Corriere della Sera. Let me just say that the news is false. We have no interest at all in buying HOCHTIEF or changing what we have there for a different controlling stake in Abertis and we've talked to our partners about this. They know that this is not true. And as I said before, our relations with them are excellent. We will continue to invest there in greenfield and brownfield projects through them. And even though that we all have problems and they have problems, in this case, with Atlantia, it's really on the sidelines, it's separated out from Abertis. And we will continue to work quite intensively with them, and with a lot of excitement, we have good relationships. So let me just deny that information that came out in Italy. We've said that already, I believe. What was the other question?

HOCHTIEF. What is the advantage for ACS shareholders in the long-term of HOCHTIEF as a listed subsidiary?

Well, it's not normal. Yes, you're right. And we have a company which had a little more than 50% of HOCHTIEF, and HOCHTIEF has 70-something-percent of -- well, that is true. It's true that we are thinking about this. We are thinking about how to streamline this infrastructure -- this structure rather. Because sometimes, we think it's a hard thing for us to explain to people and investors have a lot of trouble understanding it. But it does make a big contribution to us. HOCHTIEF is a company that makes a lot of money. We have a less stake, but we do get the half of the money. At least, we do have a big stake in Abertis through this. And you could see the advantage there through the excellent earnings, but we are thinking long and hard about whether we would be able to simplify the corporate structure that we have. We have this -- we have a company that's listed, a company that's not listed, and another company that's listed. So would you like to add anything?